Tired.

My assessment remains that some people are so deeply in denial as to failure of Bioware and/or the criminally disappointing ending to such a beloved trilogy, that it's the only way to rationalise. They've yet to move past that stage of the grieving process.

It's pretty clear to see why disagreement has become acrimonious though as both sides believe they're right and the other side is crazy for disagreeing. Hence why even after the extended cut came out people are STILL insisting it's real and somehow, the extended cut proves that.

There's nothing wrong with head canon but I feel that the extended cut pretty much kills indoctrination theory dead, especially with the refusal and synthesis endings... Are we supposed to believe that the Reapers have nothing better to do with Shepard than have lengthy epilogues? Especially one where he fails and dooms THE ENTIRE GALAXY - at least until the next cycle.

But the human mind isn't rational.

It is possible though perhaps unlikely, that Mass Effect could be saved through the DLC however if what has been posted previously is true, and Hudson and Walters are being dismissed... well... I can honestly say that now I not only get to not buy anything produced by Bioware (I don't give a damn if it saves the franchise or not), I can also blacklist any title those two imbeciles happen to be working on...

I know there is a lot of tension right now surrounding the EC DLC but everyone needs to please stop creating a new thread to post their opinion on the DLC.

HTL has no intentions of pursuing claims of false advertising relating to the endings of Mass Effect 3. These claims have been examined by multiple professional organizations and the general consensus of these organizations is that while the advertisements were certainly misleading they were not maliciously so nor were they blatant lies. That ship has sailed and it would be a waste of time and resources to pursue it.

The romance DLC pack idea was posted to the front page because the community needs something positive to focus on post EC DLC. The transition to gamer advocacy will not be an instant one like some of you seem to feel it should be. It's just impossible, we need to revamp the site and re-examine many things to ensure as smooth and seamless a transition as possible.

Patience everyone, we are doing our best to deal with the trolls and the negativity on the forums but when we have 20 threads to moderate instead of 2 it makes our jobs a lot harder. I know it's frustrating to deal with these people but the only thing I can suggest is to report them to the staff. Giving up on HTL now is just throwing away everything we have and will continue to accomplish together.

While i agree with the first statement i disagree with the 2nd about the pinned romance dlc. For one thing i dont think its in the communitys best interests to have on our first page a thread about more mass effect dlc . Not only does it give the impresson that HTL want bioware to release more DLC , when we are all split but also when ever any guests come here the first things they see is Romatic DLC . Instead of that surely a pinned thread of " What do you think our next action on game advocacy should be " thread would be better ?. Or even a Pinned notice saying all Mass effect related posts must be kept in mass effect Gen thread , something other then a minority post .

The romance DLC idea doesn't harm anyone and it's the only constructive initiative that anyone has bothered to put in place since the EC DLC. You've all made excellent suggestions but the staff are only human, we cannot do everything ourselves.

We are working on re-organizing the forums but these things take time. There will be talk about our next move around the time of the next site maintenance. For now we have our hands full trying to deal with the reactions to EC DLC so your cooperation and understanding are much appreciated.

You know, I irks the hell out of me to admit it... BUT... that ship I do concede has sailed, I do believe however that we should at minimal send a statement saying that we find misleading statements like this to be 'reprehensible' and harmful to the relationship between fans and developers and encourage that developers do their best to be as forward and honest as they possibly can be, as well as encouraging them to amend statements should other events make a statement which was intended to be true initially, prove false ultimately.

Example: Game Dev Alpha promises X in a game, however due to a limited time, X must be cut... they should then inform their potential customers, especially those who pre-ordered that they made this change.

That, I believe, is a fair request which we could put forth, even if we simply, as a whole support something like this, I believe it would go a long way in making. Not only would it state that we acknowledge that game developers do sometimes have to alter their plans showing that we understand their line of work, it would also show that we are looking out for gamer interests as well.


In regards to the DLC thing on the front page, I must agree with Chris on this one. The point of contention right now is that a hefty chunk of people here are still a tad... er... miffed... peeved... raging perhaps... over the entire situation with the Mass Effect franchise. While it is perhaps a point of optimism for a portion of the site, it is also the same point that is causing animosity amongst the rank and file... it makes those whom are still not satisfied believe that this is more a fansite than anything else... at least that is my two cents.

@Clarissant

I just noticed your response to Chris, and I can understand that things like this take time to change, evolution of an objective is a slow process and these things never go as planned... but such is life.

In regards to that, why not give those whom are still vocally opposed to Bioware something equally productive to work upon. For example the "Hold the Wallet" movement which numerous fans whom are unsatisfied with the DLC would give fans on that side of the argument to discuss how they would like to move forward with something like that and/or make their case for such a thing.

If nothing else it would possibly prove to some individuals whom are rather torn at the situation and who see certain things on the front page as a sign that HTL has simply 'rolled over' and taken what it was given. Personally I think giving something like equal weight at present would help verify that the site intends to remain neutral in regards to members who disliked the EC.

This is just a thought however so take it for what it is worth.

I'm one of those people that's still not happy over the EC, but HTL desperately needs something to focus on right now. While this DLC might not work for everyone it has helped bring focus back to part of the community. Love it or hate it it's good for the community.

I fully agree that it has, and that is a very good point but (and I apologize if by continuing to go on about this I come off as trying to play Devil's Advocate a bit to earnestly) it seems like the other chunk of members need something to rally behind as well. Even if it isn't necessarily creative at least it would display that their viewpoint is welcome. I.e. if you had a forum about all things firearms and everything stickied on the main page came across as pro-'prohibition of firearms' and nothing that was pro-'gun ownership'... you could see how it could divide the member base and make some people question biases.

Note: I am not questioning whether the DLC is good, as I do believe such initiatives are good in a way as it brings a lot of the people together for something that is most certainly productive. I am just questioning how it appears to people who are still heavily ANTI-EC...

HTL does not wish to have any association with Hold The Wallet at this time.

I'm going to be frank, I'm in the "mostly happy with EC" club and I feel for those who still hate the endings but people raging against their fellow HTL'ers is not going to help or solve anything. In fact it's just going to fracture the community and destroy any chance we have of making a further impact on the gaming industry.

With the romance thread you are looking for (and thereby creating) problems where they don't exist. If people were peeved with Dawnguard right now and wanted to start an initiative about it I wouldn't stop them and if it was worth posting on the front page it would be. HTL does have larger goals but that doesn't mean we can't embrace smaller initiatives like this romance one. People are not ready to move completely away from Mass Effect yet and HTL does not intend to do so until the last DLC is released. We will be expanding the range and scope of the site, not merely abandoning ME and BioWare in favor of the next big issue.

There seems to be as many people happy with EC DLC as there people unhappy with it. If you are unhappy you may choose to personally boycott EA or BioWare as is your right but HTL's mission statement is one of diplomacy. The staff have not had sufficient time to sit down and fully consider the matter but for the time being we have no intention of taking further action with regards to the EC DLC or the endings of ME3.

I'm not giving up. I'm temporarily walking away from a situation I have nothing to contribute to and no ability to better. I get that a forum overhaul and a new goal will take time to put together, and I'm not trying to criticize the administration for the way things are. I'm just venting some of the frustrations that many of us here share, and expressing sadness that things are what they are right now.

If you can think of a more constructive approach for those of us without the ability to moderate to take, by all means let me know. Otherwise, walking away is the only thing I can think to do to keep from raising tension further. The bent this thread has taken just proves my point.

I know how you feel Jessica and I can sympathize with wanting to walk away. I won't prevent you from doing so (it's not like I can anyways) but I do think you're making a mistake.

Just give us a little more time to get things under control, it hasn't even been a week since EC DLC released and the people causing problems are really a minority of the same few who just can't seem to let go. I understand both sides of the issue but everyone just needs to take a deep breath and remember that despite our different opinions we are all in this together.

In the meantime try exploring other areas of the forums that don't have to do with EC DLC and if people bother you report them to the staff or send me a PM. I will not tolerate attacks on other members or people bringing EC DLC rage into unrelated topics.

@Clarissant

For what it is worth I too feel the same way as @Jessica Holt. I think a lot of it boils down to a sense of a great many personal ideologies seeming to be so similar and in one fell stroke of the ax, what we perceived initially proves to ultimately be false.

People are now seeing that a few months after the shenanigans started that there is literally nothing within their power to do, speculation is pointless, and productivity directed at the former issue is counter productive to their present principals.

I think a lot of people are just floating about and with a filled lifeboat now leaving they are left to wonder if they will also have something to cling to. I don't want to question your plans and doing so is not my intent mind you, just wanting to vocalize what, appears to me, to be a common concern.

And I fully understand these concerns but you need to be patient. Rome wasn't built in a day.

Like I've already said we are doing our best, things are just going a little slower than we'd like right now in part because Volion is recovering from a severely injured hand and my little sister is in the hospital and has required multiple surgeries over the last week.

I've read some good suggestions that I plan to bring up in the next staff meeting but I am begging you guys to just sit back, enjoy the site and the company of the great people here and stop obsessing over our next objective. The staff has lead you this far, we've sunk countless hours and dollars into this site, we are not about to let anyone down now.

I trust you and the rest of the staff, no matter what happens I'll be here.

Every time I read a thread with posts like this, I'm disheartened (and there have been a few in the last few days). I'm in the camp that doesn't like the endings - before or after - and I feel like I'm being told to get over it and move on. People were ready to 'hold the line' for months and then when the EC was announced, they were waiting for the EC for months. And so now that it's been out for a few days and people who didn't like it are understandably upset, we're supposed to just 'move on' on the spot? For those who do like the EC or who are ready to move on, I urge you to engage your empathy and think about things from the perspective of people for whom the EC is a crushing defeat, the final insult. They're upset. They don't want to move on - they want to talk about it with other people who don't want to move on. That's natural human behaviour.

Secondly, why must we move on? Are we a site for gamer advocacy or a site for just a specific section of gamers? If it's the former then the conversation must remain organic. I'm not talking about flaming or rude comments (which obviously are not ok but I haven't seen any flaming or rude comments) - I'm talking about opinions: all opinions are valid. This impression is further reinforced when the HTL twitter account posts stuff like this:

@HTLcom: @Bioware I can't say what the absolute consensus would be but I think most of us are looking forward to future @Masseffect news.

As far as I can tell, the only data we have as to this is contained here, where the two-thirds majority says that they are done with Bioware: http://www.holdtheline.com/threads/follow-up-of-so-what-happens-after-the-extended-cut.2495/ - the tweet above isn't a gaming advocacy tweet - it's a fan tweet. There's nothing wrong with being a fan - individuals can be fans - but HTL is meant to be a gamers' advocacy organisation.

Regarding the advertising issue that @meatsammich touched on - those agencies examined the advertising of ME3, not the producer or developer comments (which is what people are most upset by) - why should we let that go either? I'm not saying (and I don't believe he's saying) that there's a campaign to run in there but the tone of the posts in this thread regarding the broken promises is something like 'that's done and dusted, forget about it, don't talk about it' - it feels like conversation is being stifled.

Above I said that I felt like I'm being told to get over it and move on. But it's more than that. I feel like I'm being marginalised: there's all this talk of angry flaming and @Clarissant in her post above has clarified that this is "really a minority of the same few who just can't seem to let go". It doesn't address whether or not people have 'moved on', but the data that we do have indicates that the EC largely satisfied barely over 10% of HTLers: http://www.holdtheline.com/threads/did-the-extended-cut-satisfactorily-address-your-issues.2441/. Do we remember how angry we all were when we were being described as a 'vocal minority' who 'couldn't let go'? Well intended or not ... it's happening here - ending haters are being described as such by ending lovers - and unsurprisingly, it's having the same effect.

I've deleted and restarted this post several times and thought of just closing my browser and forgetting about HTL at least twice during the writing of it but I think HTL has potential - it just seems we have an identity crisis at the moment. I truly believe that for a gamers' advocacy organisation to truly be a gamers' advocacy forum then it has to be organic - being told that 'it's over, get over it, move on' runs counter to that. It has to be the other way around: if people are over it, they will move on NOT it's over, move on.

You do not have to move on if you don't want to but HTL will. As a group we currently have no plans for a boycott of EA or BioWare as a result of the extended cut and that is pretty much the only avenue left to us at this point with regards to ME3 and the endings.

I have already said I will address this.

Legally speaking developer quotes are not considered advertisement and as such cannot be held to the same standards. Personally I believe BioWare has learned from this mistake but only time will tell.

You're not seeing the angry flaming because the moderators are doing a good job. As for my comment, I was referring to those who are flaming and starting problems regarding EC DLC in threads that having nothing to do with it or who have been attacking other members for not sharing their opinions.

Here's the deal: whether you like it or not as an organization we can't do anything further about EC DLC or the endings. So you have a choice, take advantage of your rights as a consumer and refuse to purchase any further EA/BioWare projects or accept that we need to set aside our feelings on the EC DLC in order to move onto bigger things and to prevent something like this from happening again. I'm not saying you have to do it right here right now, I'm just saying that we need to stop focusing on what's in the past before we lose sight of the future.

Just putting my to cents in. I agree with most of the posts above but it seems like we're not looking at the bigger picture. I know this site was originally (I think) for the ending of Mass Effect 3. We fought and we got, to some, a victory by getting the EC DLC. Now, the DLC has been out for a week, and there's pretty much the "I loved it, it fixed the game" camp, or the "I hated it, it's still a bad ending" camp. I fall into the latter, but I don't think attacking each other about the DLC is going to get us anywhere. We as a group need to stick together, regardless of the DLC and say no more to the gaming companies who promise us with rainbows and unicorns, but hand out garbage. We are HTL and we need to Hold the Line no matter what our differences are.

But....how am I going to keep my whipping arm in shape without riding some staffer's a**?!

EDI: That was a joke.

Seriously though, I have to point out that the HTL environment is considerably more open-minded about opinions and free speech. Which is why I "frequent this establishment" quite often. You may not get it as often as you deserve, but thank you for that. I'm glad some places out here still appreciate listening to us rant and rave (to a point) without this incessant need to "end of line" and "lockdown" any idea they don't seem to personally agree with.

So thank you. Thank you for giving us a podium to stand at. Thank you for being the last watering hole along the long dusty road of censorship. Thank you for being as active, as open-minded, as accessible as you have even in the face of personal adversities.

And most of all, thank you for being an advocate that does the right thing by all of us. And not a tyrant who enforces their dominance with the shackles of the censor. If you ever need us, or at least me, to stand with you guys when a new line is drawn.......

I'll be here.

Why is it ok to say that HTL as a group will petition for additional non-ending DLC when many of us are actively opposed to it, but it's wrong to sanction a boycott for those of us who see that as the next logical step? There's being diplomatic, and then there's pandering to Bioware and shutting down the initiatives of the people who want to pursue the only avenue left for expressing our dissatisfaction.

What makes a romance DLC pack a more worthy goal than a boycott of a company that frankly doesn't deserve our money? Why cater to half the members here and leave the other half with no goal to accomplish? There's nothing uncivil about a boycott. It's a fairly standard tactic for dissatisfied consumers, and we aren't even asking that HTL give it official endorsement. It would just be nice not to be shut down every time it gets brought up, and maybe be given the same sticky space and respect you've awarded to the people who are actually ready to kiss and make up with Bioware.